Former fundamentalist Christian Brian Flemming places the core concepts of his former religion under the microscope in a documentary that attempts to do for religion what Morgan Spurlock’s Super Size Me did for the fast-food industry. In his bold quest to seek answers to the difficult questions that few are willing to pose, Flemming is joined by Deconstructing Jesus author Robert M. Price, renowned historian Richard Carrier, and The End of Faith author Sam Harris.
From the ignorance of many contemporary Christians as to the origin of their religion to the striking similarities between Jesus Christ and the deities worshipped by ancient pagan cults and the Christian obsession with blood and violence, this faith-shaking documentary explores the many mysteries of the Christian faith as never before.
This documentary argues the “mythicist” case in the historical Jesus debate. This position says that Jesus of Nazareth wasn’t a real person but a fiction based on Jewish scriptures and mystery religions of the Roman Empire. It doesn’t make sense to talk about a “real” Jesus – there wasn’t any. This documentary has good information but could have been better produced – any high school student could have done a better job.
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100 Comments / User Reviews
When Gibson’s movie was released in 2004 I refused to see it, having turned atheist four years previously. When I saw the scenes from the film presented in this documentary, i was appalled. Its worse than I’d imagined. It’s melodramatic trash, TOTALLY overdone, an embarrassment. How any Christian can be edified by it is beyond me.
I agree with Richard Dykes criticism: The doc is spoiled by its delivery and bad music. I stopped watching it after the scenes from Gibson’s film.
interesting points spoilt by its delivery and awful music, if fact stopped watching after a while because it started to irritae me.
Great documentary! I was a member of a christian fundamentalist “group” for several years. I accepted Jesus as my saviour, was filled with the holy spirit and went about to spread “the good news”. After some time and some thinking I came to realize that I had my doubts about the Jesus story…it just didn’t make sense. There were too many holes. It was a terrifying prospect because in this fundamentalist group doubting was the ultimate sin, so I kept it a secret. I remained in the group thinking perhaps that the problem was me and my “weak” faith but ultimately came to the conclusion that Jesus was the problem.
This documentary was informative and done with creative humour….sucking Satan’s greasy dick in hell…HA! I texted several people suggesting they watch it.
Read the Talmud. It is a sacred book according to judaism. In this evil book it speaks of Jesus and His Mother in vile, wicked terms. Why would rabbis mention Him in their sacred writings if He didn’t exist?
Harry Potter was mentioned in SEVERAL books so I guess by that logic he’s real too.
You need to spend less time spewing your mindless propaganda on web posts dealing with big concepts like religion, and spend more time on Christian web sites that support your idiotic mind set.
I am not buying what you are selling, snake oil salesman. Good luck with your closed minded idealism.
This breakdown of the wiggy, vague history of a supposed historical figure was very convincing; it reminds me of the legend of King Arthur. Was there a real Arthur? Or is he an amalgamation of idealistic, stoic figures?
Same with the Jesus mythos. I always assumed that he was a real person, because the Roman General and Governor, Pontius Pilate interacted with him, so there is a record in Roman history of the area and people and events, right? Evidently not. Same with the supposed ‘miracles’ that happened after the long lost Jesus fellow showed up in Jerusalem.
There is a point that floats around about the “Sermon on the Mount”. At the time it happened, there were seven Jewish historians present in the city. Yet not a single one ever mentioned this gathering, Not a mention at all about the miraculous creation of abundant food for all who gathered, much less mention of some heretic named Jesus. And those Jews were meticulous to a fault.
After seeing this, I now consider Jesus to be as mythical as King Arthur. Without a Roman or Jewish record of him, I do not believe he ever did exist.
there are no demons. there are people that do very bad things, and people that have unfortunate illnesses, then there are the ignorant fools that see these people and assume a demon is involved because they don’t understand what is really happening, then you have the worst kind of person…a person that does bad things, then blames it on a demon because they know the world is full of ignorant fucktards that will eat that shit up like it’s a real thing, allowing the bad person to shrug off responsibility for their actions.
Some folk believe that there is a God, and as shown here, others believe that there are no Gods at all. But most importantly, they both stick to their beliefs, just like glue.
If you are directly connected to the truth, then you need not be dependent upon a belief. If a person is not connected to the truth, and thus in turn is located at a distance from the truth, the person is therefore located within a zone of “less than truth”. Only when located within this zone of “less than truth”, may the person become dependent upon beliefs.
And so if you chose to stick to your beliefs, you therefore chose to stick to being permanently positioned at a distance from the truth. In turn, you have refused to ever accept the truth itself. Thus today, neither the religious nor the atheists would be able to see the truth, even if it was positioned directly in front of them. And of course, this is exactly what happened.
Go to http://www.outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2a.htm
Click on the yellow flashing “Watch / Listen” words.
You keep saying “the truth”, but your version of truth can vary from one person to the next. it’s the “witnesses at an accident”–five people see it, yet every story has discrepancies in the telling of what they saw, yet it is the ‘truth’ according to each person.
Exactly. Each person was not seeing the truth. Each vision was partial.
Typical stuff, trying to associate the disagreement in polarized terms, us vs them, our view vs theirs, trying to equate science as another competing belief system when it is actually a process to remove the need for belief itself. Yes you are under attack, no not by another mythology, there is no grounds for argument and no argument can ever take place. All I can say is thank god we have a constitution that doesn’t want him otherwise the sheep majority would continue to rule humanity and America would look like Saudi Arabia with a denim fixation.
Brian starts off by explaining that the earth revolves around the sun.
This, despite Galileo having proved no such thing; and Tycho Brahe having adduced a far more elegant model which necessitates the sun having orbiting planets, whilst it simultaneously revolves around earth.
( Galileo had merely observed, after looking at Jupiter, that, generally speaking, small objects seem to orbit larger ones. )
This theory therefore is merely a hypothesis based on precious little; even the assumption, once again, that the sun is actually as large and as distant as we are led to believe.
Brian would have done well, had it been possible, to have interviewed the deceased astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle, who after a lifetime spent analysing the issue, came to the conclusion that no definitive evidence was available to support either hypothesis.
And an obvious candidate to interview re. the contention that the Lord Jesus Christ is a mythological figure would surely have been the renowned atheist Richard Dawkins.
But as Richard believes in His historical reality, then it might have got a little embarrassing for the central thesis.
As is the very first word in Genesis, ie “In the beginning”, or “Barasheet” as it is written in Hebrew.
Hebrew letters having intrinsic meaning; this word proves to be readable as “The Son of God will die by His own hand upon a cross.”
I also took Theology 101 in my first year of college as an elective. Congrats; you made an “A grade” as I did.
Those with a mathematical bent may be interested in Genesis 1, 1 on another level.
Hebrew letters also have numerical equivalents; accordingly therefore, this first verse sums to 2701.
2701 is probably the most unique of all numbers, at least going as far as the first 5 quadrillion, but without going into details, its factors are 37 and 73.
Each of these numbers can be represented as a six-pointed star; thus the verse as a whole may be figuratively represented as a Star of Stars; those familiar with ancient cities such as Babylon are probably aware that the main gates into the city were designed to be as impressive to the entering person as possible.
Thus, the entrance to the Word of God.
Oh no, you aren’t one of those “The Bible can be a guide to everything, no matter what” by breaking it down with math, are you? I hope you don’t believe in Astrology as well.
Have you tried that with a phone book? You can pretty much do that with any large volume of written words. Doesn’t mean squat. Depending upon your starting point, you can make sense mathematically of practically ANYTHING, as you have choices of equation versus input.
In Christian Communications Worldwide Susan Verstraete offers four criticisms of Brian Flemming’s arguments.
First, the comparison of Galileo’s difficulties with the Catholic Church with arguments about the existence of Jesus are a non sequitur. “[I]t’s like saying that because your dentist isn’t an expert on small engine repair, your family doctor probably can’t diagnose chicken pox.”
Second, to assert that “Christianity” is responsible for things like the “Spanish Inquisition, Charles Manson, David Koresh and other unbalanced, psychotic people who claimed to be doing God’s will” is a hasty generalization— “an inference about allChristians on the basis of a poorly selected sample.”
Third, Flemming exaggerates the gap between the traditional date of Jesus’ death and the composition of the Gospels, and picks and chooses elements from various mythologies to “prove that Jesus was a compilation of “dying and rising god” myths”
Fourth, she says that Flemming argues “Paul never believed that Jesus was a physical human being” because he “never quotes Jesus or talks about Jesus’ early life.” In reply she says “Paul’s letters are not meant to introduce Christ to a new audience, and so understandably don’t reiterate the stories of the Gospels,” and in addition she cites verses from the Epistles that do reference the humanity of Jesus.
I came to the comments to get an idea of the quality of the film, and all I see is debates. Wtf
Uh…it’s about Judao-Christian mythos, dolt. Quality of film? Are you SERIOUS? Of COURSE there will be debate, goofball!
Sorry, just to add one last comment. I was a born again Christian as a teen but drifted away from church, not from the concept of god per se. However I took a more mystical route which led to me trying Ayahuasca this year. The universe was as quantum scientists speculate, you are shown things on ayahuasca, all the great mysteries suddenly make sense while you are in that space. When they say all is one, and love, it totally makes sense because I experienced being a conscious soul in a vast network of intelligence, and organic life. It all seem vast, connected. You would think that I saw God with a beard, but that wasn’t it. It is hard to explain. We are created, by What I will call the creator I.e God. God seemed to be the highest consciousness in the universe (which was simply a field of energy whic shed loads going on, like life evolving each cell of it aware of the other, and connected to the creator. The creator was light, each thought was instantaneously felt by every other living cell/soul, and God/light/love was just everywhere all at once. I went through the human soul birthing sequence, I swear… fighting against it all the way because I was petrified of the glimpse of reality it saw. As a result, I think God has created a number of more reduced realities for souls to experience and grow. I even think this realm is kind of quarantine, for those who are not at peace with the wider nature of reality. This world if you like, is an act of love, and interim experience amongst billions of potential experiences. Upon reflection I believe that Jesus was God in human form, because we cannot be uncreated once created, energy just changes form. So, we seem to be here to evolve so we can learn compassion for all of creation, because we are all in the same boat. All created, never to be uncreated. All loved. Jesus was an expression of that love in human form, delivering a simplified message about our nature, the nature of creation, our part in it.
You need to learn how to separate your ideas into paragraphs dear. When I saw your post, I thought “oh my, this person is either high and rambling or has really never written an essay.” I stopped reading your diatribe after five sentences.
If you want people to actually read your thoughts, then break it up into concise and separate points. Your mind vomit looks like the ingredient list to some kind of brightly coloured, artificial candy.
Try Ayahuasca, that will provide some insight into the nature if reality. I had the equivalent of a near death experience and witnessed the birth of me from a disembodied spirit into human form. When I got back from the retreat I broke my neck to go to church, and I now pray every night. No joke, all the things you don’t get in normal reality you sure as heck get when you are taken into the expansive universe. It was daunting, we are created and we can never be uncreated, ever. I mean, get your head round that… Beautiful head cluck. I saw the creator but not in the form of an old man with a beard. I get why religion manifested because it is almost impossible to comprehend or explain the nature of reality, and the one who created our reality. Totally get why god got reduced to a simple concept, for the human mind to sort of grasp. As I said, try Ayahuasca and see the truth being reality. Don’t do it if your are not of sound mind, or attached to your belief system, whatever it is, it will get blown to bits, and you could go mad e,g nuts. You must experience this in the context of a spiritual setting, with a shaman. I would not do it on my own. There is life beyond what our five senses can perceive, and you need someone to cover your back in case you kick off. I was out if it, in the thick of multiple universe for hours. I pulled the duvet over my head for about a week after cause I couldn’t digest what I experienced, and what it meant. It was a life changer, as i said, I pray every night cause I am in awe of that which created life.
Again, mind vomit.
The Horus/Isis common pagan father/mother god and the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity are not repeated in history, The Holy Trinity is exclusive to Christianity, and is the central mystery in our religion. This Truth cannot be explained, by creation, as we describe the Uncreate. The Holy Trinity is Creator and creation is created by It. Like a candle is light, fire, air and wick and wax. The Only Holy One is Father, Jesus Christ is God the Son and son of man, the Holy Spirit is God. God is Good.
Your original assertion is incorrect, the centrality of the earth stems from creation, and the 6 days of creation. True, man beleived the misinterpetation for centuries. Creation was created for man, who was orginally spirit and flesh, in a creation that was not fallen.What you lack, is what St.Paul experienced and most other Christians, the mystical, spiritual experience of Jesus Christ.I know this love, and it verifies the Christian Faith to my full satisfaction. I cannot give this, you have to find this youreself. Seek,Ask, Knock. Reason and intellect can only guide, but without Faith it is impossible.
I was a devoted Christian when I was younger, and I have had very intense experiences of love and completeness. Though as I grew older, traveled, and experienced more overall, I learned these experiences are common to every spiritual tradition. It isn’t so much a specific religion, which was a discovery that shook me to my core. We interpret these profound, and genuine, experiences in our own philosophical and religious framework.
Zen, and Taoism in many respects, are some of the more pure “religions”, if you could call it that, as they evoke these profound experiences without needing a framework to paint them in. In these experiences, a hindu may see Ganesh and a christian may see Jesus, but the quality of the experience is the same.
This is a poorly produced biased documentary It is good for entertainment but little else.
You are a poorly produced human being; at least the guy MADE something. What have you done, dunderhead? Nothing, I am quite sure. Pretty easy to cut down people who actually try to make something on their own, do interviews, piece together graphics and video. I bet you can’t even bake a simple cake.
Oh now I understand, You are a theological historian, in that your research skills may be up to par only the material that you are given at university has to be approved by the church. So much for using your brain, well no wonder you can’t get to the bottom of anything. I mean if you can’t trust the catholic church who can you trust? Let me give you a little tip… If you want to hear both sides of an argument try listening to both parties, and then since they most definately have thier own agendas try to find an objective third party, then after you sift through all three parties B.S. somewhere in the middle is the truth.
That argument is the most laughable piece of crap I have read here so far! Let me let out a big belly laugh: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…and HAHA. Ok, over it.
A third party? You don’t know jack SHITE about how to create discussion, or a point of view. He said, from the VERY BEGINNING that he WAS a Christian, but eventually turned away, as he began to analyze his perception of it all. This is HIS personal journey from being RAISED as Christian, to finally understanding his own disbelief, and justifying it, dunderhead.
Mr.using your brain, either you didnt get the same copy of Zietgeist that I did or you were not using your brain… as I remember it the producers of that doc made it very clear where they got their sources from even running a 2 minute stream of research credits during the film… granted you may have to slow the film down to catch all of the details for the source materials, but I believe for about 2 decades now dvd players have come with a slow-mo feature. It seems you have a lot to be taught as a so called art history student… mainly how to research. Either that or you are just another true beliver trying to muddy the facts with bullshit, that you think nobody will call you on.
I would like to commend Mr Flemming for trying to present both sides of the story, I have no belief in believing in nearly anything, as all is subject to interpretation. I think that being fanatical about any belief is possibly dangerous. i think that taking anything too literally is possibly bad unless you can scientificly proove it, and even that could be subject to revision as science and peoples beliefs evolve.
how about taking the focus off jesus and god all together… and try doing your research into today’s societies that run our world… the builderberg group, the scull and bones and illuminati… the facts relating to these groups and their agendas are easy to find you just have to look!!! you dont have to look through libraries or find ancient scripts, its right there in front of you. research about how the world is run and who runs it. then look into their rituals (that the practice very year) and where they want us (the general population) to be in the future (their agenda)… and once you have found out this information (which i remind you is easy to find as it is happening currently), tell me that you think its a better place then one which the bible promotes. because when you see what they plan for this world and the greed, hate, and pure evil within them, it is then when you will again ask yourself…i hope there is a god and hey maybe his way isnt so bad.
Would the world be a better place tomorrow if everyone became an atheist?
Brian needs to go back and read Paul’s letters again… Paul believed Jesus was a real person. Galatians 4 & I Corinthians 15. He obviously has not checked his facts. In Mark’s gospel Jesus speaks prophetically of the coming destruction of Jerusalem, but he never says it happened in 70 AD – no dates were given. This little pouting faithless rendition of a “documentary” is not very scholarly and is full of holes. Yes, there are many wicked scewed up self proclaimed Christians, but that doesn’t change the Bible or provable history.
Petchdee…as a Christian I agree with you. Anyone who knows their Bible can easily see this documentary has failed to represent what the Bible teaches accurately.
For me, the style of this “Documentary” is highly offensive and generalizing.
Most of the people in the vid he is interviewing are some kind of “Authors” not even Professors or people who studied these things seriously.
Further he tries to denie Jesus as a historical PERSON, not only his existence as a “son of god” but as a human.
In that case Im not sure if i should believe Wikipedia and BBC or a former fundamentalist whos frustrated because he never was as happy as the others and does a “documentary” like this.
Cant take a thing like this serious, cause all its about relies on wrong facts and not reliable sources or theories only.
“Cant take a thing like this serious, cause all its about relies on wrong facts and not reliable sources”
You nailed it! Religion is crazy! Oh, you didn’t mean that… What an idiot I must be, relying on scientific proof.
Careful now, you might hurt the little Christians feelings. Bear in mind that Science has many facts to back up its theories. Look into any form of religion, and show me something that is able to be proven under controlled scientific conditions. Then go out and prove it. When you do that, people that you find insulting might actually believe you… But bear in mind that “belief” is the trust in something without any form of evidence, and in most cases of religion, a denial of facts to maintain belief. Come at us with an open mind, and we will provide you the same courtesy.
You spelled deny wrong….
This movie was terrible. I have a fairly good knowledge of history and the bible but I’m certainly not a scholar. I was shocked at how sloppy this “documentary” was. Very simple things to understand seem to be completely over this guys head. He doesn’t even bother to mention any non-christian historical figures who mentioned Jesus. The worst part of the movie is where he tries to convince people that a scripture in Hebrews 8 shows that Paul didn’t think Jesus ever lived on earth.
You can believe anything you want about Jesus but all you have to do to figure out what Paul was saying in that scripture is read the whole chapter in context. You literally have to be a complete idiot to assume Paul was talking about Jesus not having lived on earth. Seriously, go read it and see just how full of crap this documentary is.
Bottom line, this guy is a total amateur and just using peoples disdain for religion to sell an extremely unintelligent movie.
I don’t care what your beliefs are on god or religion. If you watch this documentary and absorb what it’s saying you will be dumber afterwards. Avoid it like the plague.
There are zero contemporary accounts for Jesus.
Your logic is flawed, “How can you love god who you have not seen,If you don’t love your brother whom you have seen”. I love air to, for without it I would be dead, I can’t see it either!
Eternal life you say?, How do you know the universe itself will not come to an end one day.
If all human life was to cease and only the plants and other animals were left would there still be a god? If there is no human to acknowledge this god then how can it exist? It is a figment of the imagination and religion is a form of power and control, Thou shall do as i say so to speak OR you will rot in hell, Nothing but fear mongering.
The true powerfull of this world fear no god and take control of their own lives and become successfull in all areas of life, from finances,love,health. YOU and those around you(good or bad) not god are responsible for everything that occurs in your life,Make no mistake about it. It is still and most likely always will be a dog eat dog world,Survival of the fittest(although humans are getting weaker relying on technology). When fake society comes crashing down and it becomes every man for himself this god won’t save you from some other predator or dare I say someone elses dinner plate!
I would love to see a bunch of truly religious/righteous people stuck on a deserted island and see what happens, I already know as I am sure most of you do to the outcome, civility dies,morals die,religion dies and you become whatever it takes to stay alive, Just the way nature wants it. Now if God existed and it created all this how can doing any of that be wrong for it is a part of nature which is so called gods creation.
Man makes rules and laws not god, So we don’t kill each other and have consequences for our actions both good and bad!
If you’re an atheist thats one thing, but why fight the other belief ? Why fight that God exists? What do you expect? You want people not to believe in anything and then be evil? You want people to kill, rape and be violent with everyone? This brings people to have alot of skeletons in their closets. Terrible secrets they want no one to know about. The Bible brings good into the world, because it teaches people to do good. If your gonna hate something at least read it first. Charles Darwin was a presbyterian minister, before he became two-faced with the theory of evolution. Look it up. Its true. You fight it when something teaches people to do good in the world? Next time someone cuts you off on the road or break in your house you’ll get the gist of what I’m saying. And why just the Bible? Why not do the same to muslims, jews, buddhists who have their own belief systems as well, with almost all believing in a god.
What do i need to download to watch this?!?
All I have to say to you all is one thing . You only cast out demons with one name , and that name is Jesus Christ and no other name . If that does nt make sense to you then i don t really think you have a brain . God bless you all.
I know you are , but what am I?
Who is it that casts out demons in only one name? Making that assumption I am only to believe that you yourself have no knowledge or any recognition of any other belief system in this world. Many beliefs believe in their own form of exorcism or shamanism and many work for themselves. It’s not necessarily proof that many deities exist yet the power of the human consciousness is that extraordinary. The problem I have is without any objection, religious or fundamentalist will cast out any other belief without acknowledging the similarities and the stupidity of blind faith.
If you want to “bless” everybody, acknowledge that not one person knows anything, for admitting you know something is knowing nothing. We cannot explain the power of the human consciousness but we can be aware of it and appreciate it as a tool to connect us all as one in which we are.
The point the director is trying to make is that with religion we are unable to advance as a humanity. It causes nothing but trouble.
Christianity is not a religion though many believe it is and that is why there is so much confusion about Christianity.
Oh jesus bejaysus, It all comes down to blind fundamentalism. ALL religions of the world promote “basic” human “values” (quote signs are meant to show the ambiguity of it all) like love, compassion, forgiveness etc… Its the human interpretation of the words written in various books written by various humans striving for power, control, knowledge, enlightenment, vengeance, forgiveness and so on. If there is a supreme being that observes us all, and judges us from day one to day august 12th 2011 (probably wrong to use the gregorian calenda in the context) this being should have given up on mankind way before most major modern religions were born. we have always hated and destroyed one another. our progress essentially comes dwn to more creative ways to accomplish that.
P.S. if any religion in the world would explain how homo sapiens have been unconscious for 60000 years and then made a leap to consciousness without any plausible cause about 40000 years ago. If it was god, he made a hell of a mess
good documentary! facts and facts in a well presented way, fun
good documentary! facts and facts in a well presented way, fun
This is a very biased documentary.
I was very disappointed. Others have done far better than this with the subject.
I was very disappointed. Others have done far better than this with the subject.
Well the very beginning of the movie is not really scientific. Since Einstein we know that what revolves around what is a question of the perspective,no?
Give Me money and I shall erase all your sins Give me Money and I shall Molest all your children
I am afraid that what the man was trying to prove, is the God does NOT exist,..and that all religion is bad. Well,..we can never prove that God does or does not exist. It is simply,..a matter of faith. Either you believe,.or you do not believe. I am a believer.
However,..the most iomportant thing that Jesus taught,..is LOVE. He is not interested in religion or sacrifice,.or politics,.or protests,..or pickett signs or anything like that. Jesus said this…”By THIS, shall all me know that you are My diciples,…that YOU have love,..one for another”. You see,..I don’t like religion either. I am an ordained Minister of The Gospel Of Jesus Christ. It has been mis-used,..abused,.perverted and disgraced. Jesus came to earth,.to teach us how to love. To love GOD first,..and our
neighbor next. These are equal in scope. For “How can you say you love GOD,..whom you have NOT seen,..if you do not love your brother, whom you HAVE seen”.
Instead of trying to prove or disprove faith,..why donm’t we all just practice LOVING each other,..and everything else will take care of itself. Famine,..War,..Pestilence,..Want,..Greed,..Envy,..ALL the problems,.will slowly but surely dissappear. It really is true,..we just don’t want to try,..because it is much easier to be angry,..offended,..and insulted,..than to LOVE and FORGIVE,..everyone. Jesus is the only one so far,..who did just that. And THAT,..is why He gave his life on the cross,..so that we might have eternal liofe,..if we just BELIEVE!
God bless you all,..and much love..
So if this so called man teaches ‘love’, then why, tell me why did a lady cut off the two arms of her sibling??
You don’t have to believe in any God to love others.
You don’t have to believe in God or religion to be a Christian either.
Jonathan C, what you state is simple and true. We all, each and every one of us, have the capacity to love, and to love to the capacity of Gods’ love. That true love, Gods’ love, is the answer, simple and true.
Now the problem is, how do we get each and every person to realize they have this capacity and for each and every person to utilize this God given gift?
god is not real dumb dumb
well now i’m convinced solid argument
Don´t get me wrong, I am neither trying to attack the christian faith or the personal decision of believing or non-believing.
The thing I ask myself as a student of culture and art that both contain historical information is – who was the real, historical Jesus. Can we find scriptures, notes, or anything else beside the bibel that are a reference to Jesus? And if yes – are those sources trustworthy and representative for that historical fragment of time?
I – for my thing – did not (yet) find any evidence of a plain historical person that might have been called Jesus until the Gospels appeared, which indeed leaves a gap of decades between the time Jesus should have lived in and the first christian scriptures. What makes me even more curious is the thing that at that time the Roman Empire had to struggle with Judaistic “tribes” or “clans” that caused – in Roman opinion – dissent among their people. There are a lot of scriptures and artworks about Judaistic groups causing trouble in the Roman society on the one hand and the Roman counter-reaction (which of course was brutal and mercyless) to stabilize their Empire.
So I ask myself – if there are so many different documents found, from poems (for example Ovidius) to diaries, narrative paintings, and especially works of Roman scholars and historics that wrote about every major event in this periode – why is there no single scripture of Roman (or Egyptian or Hellenic) origin that mentions, for example, at least one of the miracles or the crucifiction of Jesus? Especially if Jesus was Jewish and therefore also part of persecuted “judaistic riot-makers”?
Such an event simply cannot take place without any recognition from anyone for years. Jerusalem for example also was a place where scholars met, if Jesus was there, why don´t we find any clues?
Please don´t get me wrong, I do not want to offend you, nor do I doubt that there might have been a historical Jesus or maybe Jesus the Messiah – I am not judging about this, all I am intersted in is the empirical data we do or don´t have. Pure curiosity, because imagine what consequences and effects a scientific or historical proof of Jesus the Messiah would have on todays world and the position of the church. And also vice versa.
Maybe it is more twisted as we assume – just take one idea of what could have been possible at that time and play with it in your mind, whether you are a believer or not. For example: Let´s assume that Jesus did exist as believers think he did – but had no desciples. The whole story would change. Or let´s say he had desciples, but they had no last supper. There are x possibilities how to change tiny pieces of a puzzle that would – all parts combined – form the story of the bible. Just one mistake in translation could be enough, and Luther for example (I was in Wittenberg to view some handcopied bibles there) do not contain all information copied from latin originals.
That´s why I think we should just try to decode the past as far as possible. Not for some kind of anti-Christianity-agenda but just to get some kind of an overall-picture of what happened. If someone could supply me with resources, scriptures, links, etc that would be phantastic. Of course from both christian and non-christian scriptures. Just to stay objective.
I am an art-history student and fortunatelly can get access to a lot of scripts dealing with Christian subjects (even bibles dating back to about 400 b.C.) and also other mythical figures like Dionysos, Mithra and others. Working on a REAL scientific basic with that topic, there is indeed no chance to deny that a lot of religions and myths use the same kind of symbolism. For example the story of Noah and his arche can already be found in the Gilgamesh-epos. But nevertheless I think it is a shame that those documentaries (like Zeitgeist) don´t really offer sources or few. You cannot form theories without really searching for evidence or trying to prove it wrong.
Yet an interesting topic, and I guess I will make this topic the subject of my Bacherlor- or Master-thesis. And I would like to encourage everyone – no matter of sceptic or atheist or Christian – to go to libraries or bookstores and search for scriptures that provide scientific information about religions and myths. Because you can´t just say something about a topic you never did good research on.
You’re an idiot. Clearly proper grammar and spelling aren’t required of art-history students. I suggest you stay in school for as long as possible, as I’m sure your flip-flopping and rhetoric will get you laid a few times before the real world bites you in the ass.
When that happens, quite sniveling about how someone else isn’t providing you the information you want, and learn to do some research and form opinions of your own.
don’t bitch about spelling in a response and then fail to check yours, quit is not spelt with an e dick. also he is clearly not an idiot and there was no sniveling get to f***
don’t bitch about spelling in a response and then fail to check yours, quit is not spelt with an e dick. also he is clearly not an idiot and there was no sniveling get to f***
Spelt is species of wheat. It would be spelled. So you’re just as ignorant.
“Spelt” is an accurate alternative to “spelled”. Check your dictionary.
Loving this conversation
There is a lot of lies since the beggining, the reason why you dont have to give credit to this guy, whatever he is or trying to prove.
He said that Paul does not believe that Jesus was a human being, using the citation on Hebrews 8, 4.
If Jesus ( HAD BEEN ) on earth, he would not even have been a priest. This is a version of the Bible which he is the only one who has it.
– IF THEN HE WERE STILL LIVING ON EARTH, … ( AMPLIFIED BIBLE )
– NOW IF HE WERE ON EARTH, … ( HEBREWS 8, 4 – NRSV – HARPER CATHOLIC )
– ASÍ QUE SI EL ESTUVIERA SOBRE LA TIERRA,… ( LA BIBLIA DE LAS AMERICAS )
– FOR IF HE WERE ON EARTH, … ( KING JAMES VERSION )
– POR QUE SE ELE ESTIVESSE SOBRE A TERRA,… ( BIBLIA SAGRADA ED.PAULINAS )
In the same Hebrews, in the beggining, even before his false passage, on chapter 1, 6; 2,9 and 2, 16 the same Paul wrote about Jesus in earth.
– AND AGAIN, WHEN HE BRINGS HIS FIRSTBORN INTO THE WORLD ( HEBREWS 1, 6 NRSV )
– BUT WE DO SEE JESUS, WHO FOR A LITTLE WHILE WAS MADE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS – BECAUSE HE WAS MADE FLESH ( HEBREWS 2, 9 – NRSV )
– FOR IT IS CLEAR THAT HE DID NOT COME TO HELP THE ANGELS, BUT THE DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM. ( HEBREWS 2, 16 ).
Those are proving the lie of this guy, who is problably an atheist and is trying to spread confusion on peoples mind. Of course we can see a lot more on Paul letters, but in the same Hebrews is more than enough.
Jesus is the lord and the savior!
It seemed it was made by a elementary School student.
To state that religion does harm is a superficial reading of the situation. Greed for power, fear of the unknown and attacking what is foreign, et cetera are all human archetypes. These tendencies employ religion to achieve their ends. Because the expression of these tendencies is “evil”does not make the tool used for their realisation so. At 30:30 he proposes: “Religion does no harm: Discuss”. How would most people respond to the proposition: “Knives do no harm: Discuss”? Knives are dangerous in the hands of the immature, and useful in those who have the skill and maturity to wield them. Money has been the cause of an enormous amount of conflict and suffering. Do we get rid of money? No, it is the LUST for money we need to eradicate. Similarly, we need to get rid of the negative attitudes in the human species. Which ironically is the true purpose of religion.
-Unfortunately, the documentary cut out after just under an hour, but what I saw was interesting, if a tad too polemic & less than reflective or sympathetic concerning the motives behind people’s beliefs. For example, too much was made of Mel Gibson`s `The Passion Of Christ. Knowing what I know of Mel, the graphic sequences likely sought to bring a cringing reality to what he saw as Jesus’ sacrifice home to his viewers, and bring home to the viewers what Jesus endured- the “blood sacrifice” angle is debatable (although in light of Mel’s recent misadventures, the anti-semitism is unfortunately likely on the mark).
So far as the parallels between Christianity and other traditions are concerned, it’s certainly true, although much more mention could have been made as to why Christianity shares much in common with the cult of Isis/Osirus or Mithra, for example. The vast majority of Christians (as the director took the opportunity to point out), haven’t a clue concerning these older traditions & may have benefited- more should have been made of these links.
So… Was Jesus a real person? My feeling is that he likely was. Let’s face it, 2000 years ago, 99.999999…. percent of the people born would have left little if any kind of historical record- it certainly doesn’t mean that they didn’t actually exist. Was he the Son Of God? Almost certainly not, but I think he may well have been a very wise and benevolent teacher who inspired such love and devotion amongst a motley band of peasant followers, that they couldn’t forget him, and that this love that he inspired in them may well have given birth to first a legend, and later an entire religion. This, to myself at least, seems a little more feasible than the whole thing being made up out of thin air- most legends do in fact have their genesis in some grain of truth- perhaps even that of Hercules. I found troubling also that there was little mention of of the hypothetical “Q” source of the sayings of Jesus that may actually be contemporaneous with or even predate the letters of Paul- a more balanced view would have been welcome, even if it ran counter to the director’s argument.
Getting back to “The Passion Of Christ”, I saw it in the theaters not long after its release, and found it very compelling. I was troubled, however, by how many reviewers seemed to have missed the point, whether it was intentionally made or not. I recall very well watching the scene where Jesus is being whipped and having an urge to imagine myself jumping into the scene and grabbing a whip & laying into those grinning sadists. That’s when I had an epiphany- Christ preached “Love thine enemy”. Paraphrases aside, it’s THE most central and valuable teaching of Christianity- if we can’t find it in our hearts to forgive his tormentors, then in a very real way, we’re no better than they are, and NOT Christian. It’s very ironic that while I am not a Christian myself, I seem to understand this simple fact better than so many preachers of the faith.
Considering whether or not Jesus actually existed is an interesting, provocative, and indeed worthwhile exercise, but in the final analysis, I think it’s probably a case more often than not of over-zealot debunkers tossing out the baby Jesus along with the bathwater (of course strongly influenced by the cultural mileeu) that later evolved into the Christian religion.
Jesus could not have been a ‘wise and benevolent teacher’ if He claimed to be the Son of God. Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic or who He said He was.
There is much in the Bible which has to be taken on faith but there is much more which is realistic, wise and logical which surpasses any wisdom man has had to offer in thousands of years of existence. As a person matures in their faith God reveals more and more of Himself much like a child who enters 1st grade and increases in knowledge, experience and wisdom as they advance from grade to grade.
@ john sels yes my friend, your are a step in the right direction.
What ever Murph. I’m not sure which doc you watched but I saw a very good case for doing away with the harmful, conceded, and destructive practice called religion. I mean these poeople are telling our children a bunch of pure lies that do nothing but promote segregation and fear. The school requiring the student to disprove christianity? Come on man, should not the burden of proof be on the person making an assertion that something that is absolutedly counter intuitive and proven many times to be incorrect about many things is in fact reality? That makes much more sence to me any way. Besides, if the kid had o fbeen a little sharper he could have definetly proved his point. We have tons of evidence (true imperical evidence) that the world works according to scientific principles. We have absolutedly not one shred of evidence that God exists or that if he does he is the Christian God and not some other diety. More than that it is counter intuitive to a human in his right mind to think that someone was reserected or walked on water or was born of a virgin mother- so if God created us to worship him he needs to go back to egineering class. Why would you give man logic and intuition if he should ignore them, oh yeah thats right you just want us to ignore it when it comes to the devine. Any other time we would be laughed at and called crazy for believing things like this. The first thing you would say to me if I told you something was reality that was clearly not logical, feesible, or even possible is, “What proof do you have?” And you would be right to do so. But when it comes to god we are all to just accept what we have been told and do not question or try and apply logic. Get over yourselves and accept the fact that their is no eternal reward for wasting the dawn. You have one life to live do not waste it on fear and fantasy.
I would like to see some evidence ‘kind do not reproduce after their own kind’; or the ‘life of the flesh is not in the blood’; or ‘the earth is not round’. All these scientific proofs are in the Bible and long before science discovered them. Where did the writers of the Bible get that information?
Not fond of this documentary. Some things offended me, particularly showing a few crazy murderers and emphasizing the fact that they were Christian. What is that supposed to prove? Overall, I found there was very little content interspersed through long boring movie clips and an annoying soundtrack. I have a feeling that Christians will watch this film only to have their convictions reinforced.
Well to be honest Christians are usually the ones who are so fond of pointing out atheists throughout history, (stalin, pol pot, etc). The difference is the people in the video actually committed these horrible acts in the name of God where as even though Stalin and co were atheists, that wasn’t the driving force behind their actions. “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”
There are no good people only people who do good things. And people do bad things because people are corrupt in heart and the Bible and history has proven this to be true.
I would like to share in the discussion.
The Bible doesn’t prove jack.
the soundtrack completely ruins this documentary!
What ruins this documentary is the half truths which are told and passed as fact.
A lot like the Gospels, eh?
The tone/voice of the presenter aside, this documentary is really just a single, jaded guy trying to push his agenda. The culmination of the entire production is to further the narrator’s personal vendetta against religion.
Not worth watching if you’re looking for good information and expanded viewpoints.
[Force gun into eye socket: Pull trigger]
An “emotion-based” perspective is built upon faith. Perhaps are egocentric belief needs to live on…
Wish I could watch this doc, but the viewer is the most annoying piece of shit I’ve ever had the misfortune of encountering online.
Whats so bad about it? I like it just fine, loads in no time on my pc. I hate the way it kicks you out after so many minutes though. I just restarted it and it played the rest of the doc. Has a good full screen resolution for my new plasma tv as well- I likey.
Agree with Jkayak. Sh!tty viewer = me not watching it. Don’t care how good it is, it’s not worth the hassle.
And what if you found in that .01% there was evidence for God but you quit before you discovered it?
Atheism is a lack of belief, there’s no faith with it.I don’t believe in the ‘creator God’ 99.9% making me an Atheist.
Then when you’re done, realize how fatuous it was, have a chuckle and fix a nice drink.
Read “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist” by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek